Wednesday, 2014-09-03

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holtmanndvhart: Do you know that the Minnowboard Max firmware has issues with an Apple USB keyboard. It crashes badly.05:47
dvhartholtmann, that's news to me, I've never tried using an Apple keyboard.05:48
holtmannYep. That keyboard does not work. So something is wrong with the HID code in the firmware.05:49
dvhartI'd suggest opening a bug, with specifics on the error observed and the model of the keyboard.05:49
holtmannFunny. That is it.05:49
holtmannI mean nothing else shows up. The screen stays black.05:49
holtmannBooting it without they keyboard lets it boot to the UEFI prompt.05:50
dvhartassuming a non-apple keyboard also works?05:51
holtmannNo idea. I have to go out and buy one.05:52
holtmannI don't have these lying around anymore.05:52
dvhartwhat if you boot over serial and then add the keyboard, does Linux detect it properly?05:52
dvhartI'm trying to make sure it isn't a problem with your USB port05:52
dvhart(on the max)05:52
holtmannSerial cable is on order since nobody included that in the package.05:53
holtmannSame as I have to get some feet for that board. It gets a bit too hot.05:53
dvhartThat is something I miss about minnow 1 - loved the mini USB onboard for the console05:53
holtmannThat part is just silly in my eyes. Some nice serial console and USB gadget is essential.05:54
holtmannThe two things that Android got right are adb and fastboot.05:55
holtmannBoth are just plain nice to have.05:55
thaytanexternal USB hub is worth a try too05:57
dvhartthaytan, good point05:57
holtmannAnd you assume I have these lying around.05:59
thaytanholtmann, lying around? no - I assume you have them in a neatly catalogued box in a pristine lab ;)06:02
dvhartI may have access to a usb mac keyboard in the office06:05
dvhartI'll check in the morning06:05
dvhartall mine are bluetooth06:05
* dvhart crashes - night all06:09
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ahollerserials are legazy stuff, just add bluetooth as hw and bluez into the firmware ;)07:52
ahollerI already use a small bt-dongle connected to the serial with most of my "embedded" toys. that works even without bt in toy-firmware ;)07:55
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ahollerunfortunately the ftdi-connector doesn't have power from the board but for the board :(08:04
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ahollernot that I want to name the mbm a toy, I just call most of my embedded stuff such08:18
ahollerbecause, besides making linux-arm-maintainers angry, I have no use for most of them ;)08:19
ahollersorry for the picture with a competitor but I don't have a mb(m) ;)08:29
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ahollerwhich reminds me that someone should define a SPP for GATT (btle-only SPP). Should be easy to do.09:52
ahollertwo standardized attributes (serial in and serial out) should do the trick09:54
ahollerbesides baudrate and whatever is necessary on the side which connects to some hw-serial09:54
ahollerpatent pending (c) me ;)09:56
ahollermaybe someone could bribe some chipmaker to offer a low-cost serial-btle-chip. I think it would be the really a new star for embedded people.10:04
aholler(and boards)10:04
tbrso what are all the CC2540/2541 modules you can buy doing then? AFAICT they do exactly that.10:04
ahollerno, these are full-featured and not really low-cost10:05
ahollerand you need to fiddle with their firmware10:05
ahollerI just want a btle-chip with 4 wires (tx, rx, gnd, vcc), nothing else necessary to replace the serial with bt on most boards10:06
aholler(at least for low-speed applications like debugging)10:07
tbr< US$ 1.8 in quantity. I'd say this qualifies as low cost.10:08
tbrthere are also other chips by nordic etc which might be even cheaper10:08
ahollerseems to be too much for most board-producers10:08
ahollerand, as said, they would have to fiddle with the firmware. Don't let EE's do that ;)10:10
av500who cares for a few hundred people that are "debugging"10:10
av500to afford making a low cost chip for them10:11
ahollerfor me it would be a buying decision10:11
av500well, talk to TSMC10:11
av500if they can run a wafer for you10:11
aholleri'm not in that business.10:12
av500why do you even care if your debug dongle costs $5 or $15?10:12
ahollerI care for the time I have to spend to connect to the serial with ever changing cables and voltages10:13
ahollerbesides that my usb-ports for usb-2-serial-connectors are limited10:13
ahollernot to speak about the missing serial on todays hw10:14
av500yes, its serial2usb :)10:14
av500not serial2serial10:14
aholleryes, all halfduplex ;)10:14
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aholleryou haven't understood10:19
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ahollertoo complicated. the idea is to have a low-cost, low-power, easy-to-use serial-api for all those iot-people. Most "devs" are able to handle a serial-api, but try to tell them how to use GATT or some other radio-protocol.10:21
av500sure, but still its the same HW10:24
av500BT/LE on one side, uart on the other10:24
av500the rest is SW/firmware10:24
ahollerand that sw is the problem. there should be just a low-cost btle-chip with a serial-connection, like those existing serial-modules they now sell for $10 and more10:26
av500so why not use the above with the right SW?10:27
ahollerno full blown-bt necessary. Assuming btle (and btle-chips) are much more simple to produce than bt10:28
av500yes, there are BLE only chips10:28
av500still they have a little ARM inside that runs the firmware10:28
ahollerbut no gatt-serial-profile10:28
av500thats SW10:28
av500it can be part of the firmware10:28
aholleryou need a standard10:29
av500that does not mean it has to be mask programmed10:29
ahollerI could have build it myself, if I wouldn't have to register at ti to get their btle-dev-kit. ;)10:29
av500it can still be the above HW or similar10:29
av500register with nordic then :)10:30
ahollersure but no one will add such chip on boards10:30
aholler(instead of a serial)10:30
av500of course not :)10:31
av500imagine having 20 boards running10:31
av500find a BLE stack that handles 20 peripherals10:31
av500good luck10:31
ahollerno problem, just use 3 bt-dongles10:31
av500right, it gets simple and simpler :)10:32
ahollerdon't know out of memory how many connections btle does allow10:32
av500and hope that your wifi does not kill the BLE10:33
ahollerI use bt instead of wifi ;)10:33
av500because the debug BLE most likely wont have a coexistence line with the wifi chip10:33
av500the board you want to debug might have wifi10:33
av500or does your standard disallow that?10:34
ahollercan't follow10:34
av500you have a board with wifi10:34
av500you debug over BLE10:34
ahollerdo you want to say wifi and bt(le) can't cooperate?10:34
av500with your $1 chip10:34
av500they cant10:34
av500thats why there are so called coexistance protocolls10:34
av500in a combined wifi/bt chip, its SW10:35
av500for 2 chips, its a signal line that tells the other to shut up10:35
av500of course it works without10:35
av500but you can kill the throughput10:35
ahollerthe whole idea of the fast-switching bt is coexistence10:36
av500and there is reality10:36
ahollersure in reality nothing works as promised10:36
ahollerbut at least I don't have problems to use BT, and there is a lot of wifi around here10:37
av500and there is us yelling at IC makers to even get coexistance in their own chip working10:37
av500and now imagine a room full of boards, that you debug10:38
ahollerthat's most likely because the stuff uses the same antenna10:38
ahollerI have a room full with boards and they all talk bt in an environment full of wifi10:40
av500fig 4-9, 4-1010:40
av500yes, they talk10:40
av500but look at the rates10:40
ahollerI'm talking about low-speed serials, something were 1000c/s are a lot ;)10:41
av500so you want to limit your solution to low speeds?10:41
av500ok, 120010:42
ahollersure, it's enough for most serials and sensors10:42
av500640k was enough for everybody :)10:43
ahollerI don't think btle is usable with higher speeds10:43
av500it is10:44
ahollerbut I haven't played that much which GATT, just read a sensor-tag ;)10:44
ahollerthose pictures do talk about throughoutput in mbps ;)10:47
ahollernot what I have in mind ;)10:48
ahollerbesides that, just move wifi out of the 2ghz-band ;)10:51
ahollerwhat speeds are possible with btle/gatt? I assume with high speeds there isn't much le left10:58
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ahollere.g. my sensortag "just" worked around a month on a coin-cell when reading values every 4 minutes11:01
ahollerbut that's likely because I haven't tuned the bt-params of the host11:02
aholleror at the host. they weren't tunable (I think there are now patches for that available)11:02
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ahollerok, to limit the speed while still offering higher baudrates you need 2 cables/pin more (rts/cts).11:19
ahollerassuming no one wants to go back to using xmodem or similiar ;)11:20
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macmeckwarthog9: ping15:02
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prpplaguemacmeck: he might be out on holiday15:07
prpplaguemacmeck: did you have a question?15:07
macmeckprpplague: just wanted to know if there is any update on the max cpu frequency thing we discussed last week15:08
prpplaguemacmeck: i don't think it's been looked into heavily as of yet15:08
macmeckprpplague: i'll get back to him once he's back15:08
prpplaguemacmeck: i've not been able to replicate the issue15:08
macmeckprpplague: okay15:08
prpplaguemacmeck: dvhart is the one you want to ping15:08
macmeckprpplague: okay15:09
macmeckprpplague: thanks15:09
prpplaguemacmeck: dvhart will have more time/expertise to look into it for you15:09
prpplaguemacmeck: have you posted the issue on the mailing list yet?15:09
macmeckprpplague: nope. someone else brought it up, i just realized that i had the same on my board15:10
macmeckprpplague: i'll check the mailing list later15:10
prpplaguemacmeck: if someone can post it on the list, it will be a good way to track the issue15:11
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