Saturday, 2015-03-21

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FartNozzleDCC SEND STARTKEYLOGGER 0 0 0 سمَـَّوُوُحخ ̷̴̐خ ̷̴̐خ ̷̴̐خ امارتيخ ̷̴̐خ00:42
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dkeavda fuq01:12
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sysop2hello guys, my sata controller broke on my minnowboard max. died is it possible to boot windows 8.1 off a usb drive?01:38
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warthog9aholler: 40407:45
MinnowBoardGSoC7please any advice on Create WITCH on a Board project07:46
warthog9MinnowBoardGSoC7: do you have a specific question on the project?07:46
MinnowBoardGSoC7i want to start to contribute in it in gsoc, So how to start with it07:47
MinnowBoardGSoC7give me a start with Create WITCH on a Board project07:48
warthog9MinnowBoardGSoC7: it's come up a couple of times on the mailing list, but this link should give you a good starting point:
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cezar57Hi everyone11:02
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minusoneHi. I wonder if anyone is involved in an IoT/M2M framework for the board.16:57
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minusoneSimilar to the WebIOPi or Kura projects.16:58
warthog9minusone: I'm not aware, but that doesn't mean that someone isn't16:59
minusoneI was asking because it seems an interesting proposal for GSoC.17:00
minusoneminnowd, a daemon for IoT17:00
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warthog9minusone: could be an interesting project proposal :-)17:02
warthog9minusone: going to submit it? ;-)17:08
minusonewarthog9: Yes, I've got some ideas about what to implement.17:08
warthog9worth writing up, and we've got enough mentors who know python, perl and c :-)17:09
minusoneI was thinking of splitting the work in 2 parts: 1) minnowd per se (code for the board), and 2) client framework(s) and physical testing, Android perhaps + I2C/SPI devices17:13
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warthog9I'd be interested in seeing the proposal17:16
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minusoneI think it would be much more useful to get tangible real-world results, instead of a proof-of-concept daemon.17:17
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minusoneOK, realistically it is a proof of concept, but anyway we could attract many more developers and tinkerers if there is an easy-to-use mobile interface.17:19
minusone(to use the Minnowboard)17:20
warthog9good proof of concepts, that show folks how to extend and go beyond are worthwhile17:24
minusoneSo, to what email address should I send the proposal?17:26
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warthog9minusone: I'd put the proposal straight into google-melange17:26
warthog9it has a comment system, and you can edit the proposal once it's up17:27
warthog9and it means you won't forget the deadline :-)17:27
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minusoneGreat. I hope to receive feedback.17:29
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minusoneI wanted to comment something about the Witch On A Board project. It seems from the description that what you really want is a microarchitecture emulator.17:36
prpplagueminusone: yes basically17:37
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prpplagueminusone: the goal of the emulator is to understand the hardware for replication17:37
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AshutoshDas_prpplague: Hey17:40
AshutoshDas_prpplague: It will be great if I get a feedback on my proposal, so that I can improve it further, because I am myself not satisfied with this initial proposal of mine.17:41
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prpplagueAshutoshDas: i don't think we can provide feedback after they have been submitted, and i've not been able to check with warthog9 about it17:50
warthog9prpplague: I think we can17:51
warthog9prpplague: either way we'll have their e-mail addresses and there's still the interview which would allow us to expound more17:51
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minusoneprpplague: Totally feasible, however I still can't see clearly its educational value. First, it has a quirky architecture (for today standards) and a not-so-simple microarchitecture because of vintage components. Second,  there is a plethora of classic computers which could provide a much more profound understanding of modern computers (or any computer in fact, because today's components have a more ideal digital behavior).17:55
tushraj@warthog9 : Hi, Should I  submit my proposal on melange or the mailing list for the initial feedback and suggestions ?17:55
warthog9tushraj: melange17:56
minusoneI think ultimately it's more valuable to computer historians.17:56
warthog9tushraj: we can comment there and it means your app is in17:56
meflinyou cann comment after submission17:56
tushraj@warthog9 : Okay  : - )17:57
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cezar57Hi @warthog917:59
cezar57I was wondering... The final result should be an iPXE flashed to the NIC or just chainloading iPXE from PXE?18:00
warthog9cezar57: iPXE will become apart of the base firmware18:02
warthog9so effectively "flashed to the nic"18:02
Aman_singhprpplague:for extending core libraries project  I was thinking to get started with variants but not able to find pin_mux information on wiki's page18:03
warthog9cezar57: so part of the process will be getting iPXE integrated into the firmware in a sane way18:04
warthog9Aman_singh: pin_mux for the MAX's pins?18:05
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warthog9cezar57, tushraj, Aman_singh: anything else I can answer?  I've got errands to run, but will be back late tonight (pacific)18:10
warthog9cezar57, tushraj, Aman_singh: you can always take to the mailing list too18:10
cezar57and this is the part where edk II takes stage18:10
cezar57i don't have any other questions18:11
cezar57I used that one to18:11
tushraj@warthog9 : I'm preparing my proposal right now, I don't have any questions now. Ill ask on the mailing list.thanks18:11
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Aman_singh@warthog9: had a look over galileo's over sysfs and variants file , gonna edit and post them on github18:15
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Aman_singh@warthog9: can you tell me something about what modification we need to use  this file18:18
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Aman_singhprpplague: or we can use enquire.c  as much I have read , I came to know that it will help in compiling the code but don't think so about arduino type sketches18:26
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prpplagueminusone: the educational aspect is that this was one of the very first computing devices, and has implemented all the core features of an ALU18:53
prpplagueminusone: basically the WITCH is a giant 400418:53
prpplagueminusone: but it serves to understand how basic architecture comes to together as well as the core reasoning around using decimal instead of binary as the initial methods18:54
minusoneprpplague: I should be more explicit: educational value for the masses. Quoting the wiki: "and eventually use it as an effective educational tool for children".18:56
minusoneNobody can deny it could be a marvelous tool for researchers.18:57
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Wormoresearchers tend to know how basic ALUs work... but high schoolers who grow up to be chip designers or assembly language gurus could get started with a WITCH emu18:58
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Wormo(that kid's not even in high school yet)19:01
minusoneWormo: Nobody learns anymore (college-level) how to use vacuum tubes, dekatrons, core memories, or even how to deal with relay-based logic.19:06
minusoneWormo: So, new generation of researchers really are not aware of these first efforts of computing machineries (or don't have enough time to learn history).19:07
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Wormominusone: still seems like a simple decimal computer emulator would be more appealing to computer architecture newbies than researchers on the whole19:11
Wormocomputer architecture 101 often uses imaginary simple cpus, and I think WICH-E could be a fun replacement19:12
minusoneIMHO, machines based on building blocks like Am2900 (bit-slicing), though relatively modern (1970s), could captivate young people interested in technology, because they actually can build (using old parts or emulated components) and get a thorough understanding from a microarchitectural level.19:13
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WormoI did bit-slicing in college and it didn't have much of an impact on me, can't say whether WICH-E on minnowboard with der blinken lights would have been more exciting19:15
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WormoI liked 8085 projects best probably...19:16
minusoneWormo: Well, I agree that most of us got hooked when discovering microprocessors...19:18
minusoneMicroarchitecture on the other hand is a tough subject for children.19:19
Wormominusone: perhaps, I've not seen many people attempt it19:19
Wormominusone: it's kind of new ground to try to teach it to 13-yo19:20
minusoneIt's really necessary to execute more educational experiments of this kind.19:22
Wormoyes, I think that's a good idea19:22
Wormopersonally I had an early educational experience that set me on the path of being an engineer19:23
WormoI was probably about 12 when my dad brought me something like this
Wormomost people woulda thought he was nuts, that it would scare off 12 year olds19:24
WormoI didn't become an EE in the end, but it did give me the (accurate) impression engineering has a lot of fun problem-solving...19:27
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minusoneThe book seems a little intimidating for an average kid, but as always happens, those who were born with a natural inclination to technology eventually will encounter the knowledge they need.19:35
minusoneAnd yeah, what you mention of the first impression is quite critical.19:37
DonkeyHoteinatural inclinations to anything do not translate to knowledge19:37
minusoneWormo: If you are poorly exposed to a theme from the beginning, there are high chances you will end hating or ignoring the subject.19:38
Wormominusone: right19:39
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cezar57I think that the WITCH is more important in a theoretical way... i mean technology has evolved a lot and in many domains it's not practical to learn everything from the basis to the present days...19:47
cezar57however something like the WITCH  could give a child (or even an adult ) a different perspective so that different theories can appear19:49
minusoneDonkeyHotei: I was referring to common scenarios where a kid wants to understand what's inside the box, and eventually learns from a book, internet or asking a savvy adult. If it's the case of a complex book or explanation, and he/she really gets interested, the kid will look further into the subject, to the point of understanding fundamentals that are usually  taught at college.19:49
DonkeyHoteinot every kid gets such opportunities19:50
cezar57I meam... many of the great ideas came as a disproof of something that was thought to be the general truth until that certain moment19:51
cezar57like the theory of relativity... or even gravity19:51
minusonecezar57: I agree with the possibilities of a different perspective. But if your first contact is with obscure ideas from the beginning of a branch of science, I'm not completely sure that will be helpful.19:53
DonkeyHoteito each their own19:54
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minusoneI mean, even Einstein needed Newtonian mechanics. And Newton obviously had 'the shoulder of  giants'.19:57
Wormominusone, which is the especially obscure part being emualated? I can't imagine many people would get stuck from the transition between decimal logic to binary, since we all had to make that transition (I don't know of anybody teaching their toddlers to count in binary...)19:57
minusoneWormo: The ALU is the easy part of course.19:58
minusoneThe dekatrons are another beast.19:58
minusoneThe state that depends on a sequence of pulses, a sort of biphase clock.19:59
Wormois that something that  somebody learning with the emulator needs to worry about though?20:00
cezar57minusone: Nowadays in i don't think we can say any longer that the first contact with a computer would be at the age of 13-1420:00
DonkeyHoteii see 4-year-olds with their own ipads all the time20:01
cezar57Exactly, and things will evolve more and more20:02
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cezar57So i think that those who are not interested, or those who will get scared will simply ignore such piece of technology and stick to whats new20:05
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minusoneWormo: Of course not. Architecturely is not that complex. But if we don't intend to expose the internals of the machine, we end with another that's surely a problem. Since Turing/Von Neumann times computers have had instructions sets that follow some guidelines. Learning the ISA per se is not of much value.20:06
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Wormominusone: I think if you can talk someone into learning any simple ISA, there can be benefits in confidence and interest to learn more20:10
Wormobut, I'm not an expert on what the optimal teaching methods for basic architecture are, just taken it myself and knew someone who taught it20:13
minusonecezar57: I think it's perfectly valid your point. And of course I agree that the Witch project is quite worthwhile. However, I still see the proposition of an educational tool for children as an afterthought, IMHO.20:13
Wormo("optimal" of course depending significantly on the student...)20:13
DonkeyHoteiwhat is optimal is unique to every individual20:13
minusoneWormo: Definitely learning an ISA is quite beneficial. But given the case of having a Minnowboard in your hands, why not learn x86 assembler instead?20:19
cezar57I understand what you are saying but I cannot give my opinion of this matter due to the fact that i am not very good at theaching little ones20:19
cezar57But I can say that I would have liked to learn such things when I was a 13yo20:20
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DonkeyHoteix86 assembler is pretty awful and it's a wonder that it even works at all in this day and age20:21
minusoneWormo: One reason I can argue why choose an old ISA from a classic computer versus x86 is because I can teach children what's really inside the box and how they could possibly modify it (at least on paper or simulation).20:22
minusoneDonkeyHotei: I fell in love with x86 assembler when I was 12, I think. It's really not that bad for someone trying to understand what's inside his/her computer.20:24
DonkeyHoteiwhen i was 12 my assembler was m68k but i also tried x86 and was like "really?"20:25
minusoneMy story was exactly backwards.20:26
minusoneMotorola had 'VAX syndrome' when doing the 68k.20:27
WormoMy prof told us x86 ISA was designed by HW engineers, while m68k was designed by SW engineers to be orthogonal and so forth instead of saving a few transistors here and there20:31
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minusonecezar57: I'm not expert neither. So, take my opinion with a grain of salt, but anyways I think that a debate can only yield better end results.20:32
cezar57Debates are always a way of evolution20:35
minusoneWormo: I'd tend to agree with that observation, except for the fact that the SW engineers from Motorola finished their specification and then passed it to the HW engineers, who faced the real limitations of the state-of-the-art HW and ended producing the weird thing known as 68000.20:36
WormoI never did anything real in m68k, started with ppc for real20:37
DonkeyHoteippc was far weirder20:37
WormoWhat bothered you about it?20:38
DonkeyHoteino stack, for one20:38
WormoYou mean that stack was defined by ABI convention?20:39
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WormoI've heard of stackless code, but ppcboot & ppc kernel did have stacks...20:40
DonkeyHoteithe endianness bit was even worse20:44
Wormoendian agnostic, run either mode? That was in theory, but in practice I never had to deal with anything little-endian on ppc, ever; for practical purposes you could say ppc is big-endian like m68k20:46
minusoneLike SPARC then, which is for practical purposes big-endian.20:46
WormoIf you're being a purist who critiques the spec though, you do have a point!20:46
DonkeyHoteippc was never capable of little-endian20:47
minusoneI'm happy that, fortunately, endianness wars have come to an end...(or it looks like).20:47
WormoThere  are ppc that can do little-endian20:47
Wormonever seen powerpcle in the wild though20:48
Wormo(nor do I want to)20:49
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joshiHello, everyone. On there is PCIE Lure mentioned (and I mean full-size 3x slot, not FLOATSAM). Anyone has any idea on availability and price?22:58
Wormojoshi, are you sure it's not referring to Jetsam (assume that's what you meant, Flotsam being SATA)23:05
Wormosince nothing else seems to mentionn a bigger pcie lure, my guess is that it was an early, but not carried out plan for the Jetsam...23:12
joshiHmmm.. Not quite inspiring. OK, and did anyone tried to use something like this to increase number of usable slots with Floatsam?23:15
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joshiOops, sorry, I meant Jetsam, of course. mPCIe one.23:17
WormoI've not done PCIe on this platform yet, sorry23:18
WormoToo bad prpplague isn't here to answer your questions about it23:20
joshiBasically I'm trying to connect 3 or 4 DVB receivers to whatever will be able to stream from them to 1Gbps Ethernet. There is not much work to do for CPU here, even cheap Marvell 88F6282 at 1.6 GHz has maximum 10% of CPU usage with one of them.23:26
joshiTricky part is to find anything with this amount of PCIe slots.23:27
Wormoso a PCI-e slot multiplier then?23:27
WormoThe DVB are each 1x ?23:27
joshiYes and each one may theoretically stream max 256mbps23:28
joshiAbout multiplier - yes, I'm waiting for this one to arrive:
joshiBut if MinnoboardMAX with two cores has 2 PCIe slots in theory - then why not connect two of those?...23:31
joshiAnd fry this poor thing...23:31
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WormoTechnically I think the port multiplier would work, controller is PCI2.0 so 4gb/s23:31
Wormothat's enough leeway I'd be comfortable23:33
joshiYes, I think so too.23:33
joshiAs soon as this multiplier arrives, I will first try it on It's the same $150 as Minnoboard MAX single core with Jetsam and I have it on hand right now.23:33
Wormothat sounds like a good plan23:34
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calculusprpplague: looks like I am flying through DFW on my way to Florida23:40
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calculusoh, pcie multiplier, there is an faq about a sata multiplier23:50

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