Wednesday, 2016-01-06

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warthog9huh, I hadn't noticed ADI snuck the OSH logo on the Turbots00:58
jimt1'snuck'?  it was POR00:59
warthog9jimt1: I've been staring at so many documents I can't remember them all anymore ;-)00:59
warthog9so I'm sometimes (usually pleasantly) surprised with things like that00:59
jimt1try playing lawyer sometime, it's much, much worse01:00
warthog9jimt1: I try not to01:00
warthog9I'm bolting a Turbot into one of these lovely blue cases01:00
warthog9going to try making up a z-wave controller box01:01
warthog9as I'm slightly annoyed at my current solution, and usually scratching itches make for decent demos01:02
calculusis this something for SCALE?01:05
warthog9calculus: if I get it working I can bring it01:10
warthog9I wasn't specifically targetting SCaLE01:10
warthog9I was more targetting "this would make for a good howto, and it's something I want to work on"01:10
warthog9aside from attending the 10 billion meetings I have to attend ;-)01:10
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tbrheh, the whole distribution crapola about the turbot is getting fun17:52
tbra guy I know just went "whoa, no f*** way" after being totally hyped to get a turbot17:52
tbrguess a 100% markup is not that interesting17:52
tbrwarthog9: poke, as jimt1 isn't here17:53
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tbrah there he is17:57
tbr17:52:04< tbr> heh, the whole distribution crapola about the turbot is getting fun17:57
tbr17:52:35< tbr> a guy I know just went "whoa, no f*** way" after being totally hyped to get a turbot17:57
tbr17:52:47< tbr> guess a 100% markup is not that interesting17:57
tbr17:53:22< tbr> warthog9: poke, as jimt1 isn't here17:57
wmat100% markup?18:10
jimt1100% markup?  where?18:15
jimt1tbr what "distribution crapola about the turbot"?  and "100% markup?"  where?18:19
tbrjimt1: I'm guessing one costs about $100-120. shipping 30-50. Import VAT in europe ~50€. doubles the price18:19
tbrall because the only place that sells it is your US shop. even CCo had a better distribution arrangement, even if they failed at pretty much *everything* else, including stable supply.18:20
jimt11) A VAT is like a sales tax in that ultimately only the end consumer is taxed.18:21
jimt12) shipping costs what it does.  I don't think we mark it up, but I could be wrong.  I know they've been working in the back to get USPS up and running, in order to lower the costs.18:22
tbrjimt1: still the minnowboar Max didn't have a 50% markup in europe, magically. somehow mouser and the others managed to keep it below that (yes it was significantly more expensive)18:22
jimt1I think you're using the term "markup" incorrectly.18:23
tbrbatch shipping 50 boards over the pond cost about the same as ONE board. getting a device shipped within europe can be as low as 10€18:23
jimt1When we turn on europe, there may be some uplift due to the expenses incurred,18:24
tbrjimt1: I'm using the term in the liberal sense: "amount it costs on top of the listed sales price"18:24
jimt1shipping 50 boards does not cost "about the same as one board"18:24
tbrIt does not cost as much as shipping 50x 1 board. in approximation its much closer to ONE than FIFTY18:24
jimt1except at the very low end, shipping is priced by 'dimensional weight"18:24
jimt1that's true.  It does not cost 50X to ship 50 boards18:25
tbrthat's the "magic" of having a distribution channel18:25
tbryou might want to try it out some day, it might do wonders to your sales. *SNERK*18:25
jimt1but your complaint is that 1) shipping costs money, and that fast shipping costs more, 2) some countries charge VAT18:26
jimt1We have a distribution channel. every pfsense partner (https://www.pfsense.org/partners/) is a netgate partner.  They're just not turned up on Turbot, yet18:26
jimt1I also have employees in Europe (2 in the EU, one in Norway, which is Europe, but not EU).   (I have 2 more employees in Brazil.)18:27
tbrno my complaint is: having a board on my desk costs 200% of sales price if it is a turbot18:27
jimt1OK, let's assume that's true.18:28
tbrwhile it can be as low as 100% of sales price (usually closer 120%) for ANY other board that is available through a european distributor18:28
jimt1what did you pay for the >board< .vs shipping and import duties or taxes (including VAT)?18:28
tbrthat is completely irrelevant. bottom line. TCO.18:28
jimt1I think it is relevant.  You're accusing me (or Netgate) of "100% markup", when that's not what is happening.18:29
tbryour reasoning may work for b2b sales, where the customer does accept shipping costs and taxes as a given of doing business18:29
jimt1I think a complaint of "turbot is currently too expensive to me, given shipping and import duties/taxes/VAT" is valid18:29
jimt1I think your complaint of "100% markup" (which implies that we are making > 100% profits) is invalid18:30
tbrI'm accusing Netgate of not bothering to care about european consumer (maker/hobbyist) customers18:30
jimt1words have meanings18:30
tbrthat's fine, that's a business strategy18:30
jimt1We do care18:30
tbrI accept that18:30
tbrno you don't18:30
tbrelse you would have a different sales channel for europe18:30
jimt1and what you're seeing is >very< early days of Turbot availability18:30
tbrand I'm telling you you SHOULD work on it18:30
tbrinstead you give me hogwash18:31
jimt1and I'm telling you that it is being worked on.18:31
tbrbut suit yourself18:31
tbrIDGAF18:31
jimt1I Do GAF, (to use your vernacular)18:31
jimt1and, btw, Mouser, Arrow, Avnet, etc can all buy from ADI to resell.18:32
jimt1the first task with Turbot was to get it where it could be manufactured in volume.  that is done.18:33
jimt1the second task was to clean up some of the long-standing technical issues with the design.  this too is done.18:33
jimt1the first build hit the shipping dock in mid-december, and is about sold out.  I'm not going to give exact numbers.18:34
jimt1there is a second build that will hit the shipping dock just after CNY18:35
jimt1supply may, or may not ease up at that point.18:35
jimt1OK?18:35
wmatso FedEx international is the only shipping option to Canada from Netgate :(18:36
jimt1s/only/only current/18:37
wmatUSPS is usually cheaper, fwiw18:37
jimt1as I said above, USPS is being turned up in the now.  We know it's an issue.18:38
wmatok18:38
jimt1"FedEx International" is basically an expensive way to hire FedEx to deal with customs.18:39
wmatyeah18:39
jimt1We do have (and have had for over a decade) a couple customs brokers18:39
wmati've had to pay customs at the door to UPS before, it's crappy and always expensive18:39
jimt1most of the "issue" here is that it's early days on Turbot18:39
wmatfair enough18:39
wmati could always use a border drop and drive to buffalo is i was really motivated18:41
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warthog9tbr: get it figured out?20:57
tbrwarthog9: it's not for me to figure out a sensible distribution channel strategy for Intel/ADI/Netgate, unless ofc they want to pay me for that.20:58
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