Tuesday, 2016-12-06

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wmarone|tmpBitweasil: everyone's waiting for ADI to release their Turbot Dual Ethernet03:02
* jnavarro_ reads "Ethernet Lure" and thinks on a Microchip ENC28J60 over SPI04:09
jnavarro_But that would be too slow04:19
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minnowAndroidHello everyone09:48
zentrumwmarone|tmp: i guess the turbot dual-e is just vaporware09:56
zentrumi mean, apollo lake is already there, so why waiting for a baytrail sbc?09:57
zentrumthe other thing is ADI is simply not interested in low margin business and i bet minnowboard is small margin business?09:58
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minnowAndroidI need help on rooting minnowboard max turbot with android 5.1.110:38
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* ScrambledAuroras yells13:16
ScrambledAurorasapollo lake. aaa13:16
ScrambledAurorasthis'll be a problem for the turbo4xxx project i'm doing13:16
ScrambledAurorasidk i am sorta an independent fellow so i suppose we could work together and build an apollo lake minnow with LPDDR413:23
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zentrumScrambledAuroras: no offense but TBH it looks like you need a commercial support in the background otherwise it fires back every time a paying customer has a problem15:10
zentrumScrambledAuroras: i used the IB 897 instead of minnowboard at the end15:10
zentrumhaving no intel nic worried me a lot and its not cost so much more15:11
zentrumScrambledAuroras: http://www.congatec.com/en/products/pico-itx/conga-pa5.html is also _quite_ attractive15:12
zentrumScrambledAuroras: basically the turbot dual-e, but more user friendly (efi _with_ CSM) and so on...15:13
ScrambledAuroras:) thanks15:13
zentrumthe conga guys are little bit weird regarding MOQ, but you talk to them :)15:14
zentrumScrambledAuroras: conga5 is already 5th generation, max should be 4th generation and recent is the 6th gen15:17
ScrambledAuroras*sigh* just tired, been working on my cpu architecture myself but it's so ugly doing it. i need a better pipeline. not cpu pipeline ofc15:19
zentrumScrambledAuroras: http://www.commell.com.tw/Product/SBC/LP-175.HTM <= ?15:20
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rada_zentrum You mean Turbot should not be acquired any more? Is it getting end of life?17:08
Bitweasilrada_, if it works for what you need, buy it.17:13
rada_Turbot had been a major player in my plans.17:14
BitweasilWhat are you looking to do?  If the current hardware does what you need, buy it.17:14
BitweasilIf it doesn't, wait for the next version.17:14
rada_But why pico-itx by congatec promotes 24/7 embedded operation. is this not possible with minnow too?17:15
rada_Bitweasil when will it be out?17:15
BitweasilI have no idea!17:15
rada_I think I can wait if it is some months..17:15
BitweasilI'm quite happy with my little Turbot.17:15
rada_I also like it.17:16
rada_It is for static appliances only (for the next year).17:16
rada_i.e. one automatic voice controlled door ...17:16
rada_So it should do it ... I will run voidlinux on it.17:17
rada_with realtime kernel.17:17
BitweasilSure.  I'm sure any of the devices will be fine.17:17
rada_So when you think it will no longer suit? 3D17:17
Bitweasil"realtime" :p  You'll need to eliminate system management mode if you want hard realtime on x86.17:17
BitweasilI have no idea.17:17
rada_Then we need Jetson NVIDIA ...17:17
BitweasilBuy whatever you want.17:17
rada_true ... well, a semi real time is okay. Until ARM support and MUSL is a bit more mature.17:18
rada_The door can have its jitter ... lol17:18
rada_It will serve open source security too. So our community increases their security. Noble open source  efforts should get more rewards.17:19
rada_(except me of course, not that you think I'm selfish)17:20
* rada_ not deserves even one reward. xD17:20
rada_Bitweasil: what are you using it for? server? and thanks for the clarification of the pico-itx conga.17:21
BitweasilI'm doing EFI related development on mine.17:22
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rada_Are a linux or bsd bootloader developer? why the minnowboard is so well suited for EFI dev?17:38
rada_because hw is open?17:38
rada_or do your machines not even need os and run in EFI only? *scared*17:39
BitweasilThe hardware and firmware are open enough that I can do what I need to do, and easily reflash with a SPI flasher if I hose something playing around.17:43
BitweasilYou can build an EFI image from source and have things work.  You're still a bit dependent on the firmware support blobs, but everyone is...17:44
BitweasilAnd as for what I do, stuff.  With things.  In the EFI layer.17:44
BitweasilSometimes I switch it up and do things with stuff.17:44
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rada_haha ... secret agent18:21
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Bitweasil*shrug* More that it's hard enough to explain what I'm doing to people with a lot of deep x86 knowledge.18:23
zentrumBitweasil: hehe18:35
zentrumspeak to us, we understand your feelings ;)18:36
zentrum"my name is zentrum, i have an information science problem" ;)18:36
Bitweasilulf`, are you familiar with the dual monitor mode of operation (hypervisor for the SMM handler)?18:40
ulf`Bitweasil: not a bit18:40
Bitweasilm'kay then.18:40
zentrumtell me more :)18:41
Bitweasilzentrum, it's well described in the Intel reference manuals.18:41
zentrumBitweasil: im doing weird micro kernel stuff with blurring boundaries between HVM, micro kernel, exo kernel and so on...18:41
BitweasilThen understanding SMM would be useful if you care about security. :)18:42
ulf`Bitweasil: Would be a question for the minnowboard mailing list18:43
ulf`Bitweasil: And if no one responds I can think of one or two people I can forward the email to :)_18:43
BitweasilWhat of it?  I'm familiar with it.18:43
BitweasilI'm just saying that it's difficult to explain what I'm doing to people who don't know the rather obscure corner of x86 I'm playing with.18:43
BitweasilBut the Minnowboard is easy to work with for stuff like that.18:44
zentrumBitweasil: im about implementing the NX bit ATM18:48
rada_hm.. as you are x86 guys, you are convinced of it. So you think SMM is neither likely to be hijacked nor to be significant for realtime.18:49
BitweasilWho said that?  It's a security mess and annoying as hell for realtime work.18:49
BitweasilI don't exactly trust x86 for sensitive work.18:49
rada_xD Okay, so you must have real reasons for your EFI work and SMM then. So you know about its security.18:50
rada_And now that's bad. But don't you think these APIs that most SoC vendors provide are no less secure. e.g. TrustZone looks similar to SMM.18:51
BitweasilI don't understand what you're asking.18:51
BitweasilI think modern computers are a security mess.18:51
BitweasilIt's a reasonable assumption that, given what I've talked about, I'm aware that SMM is a point of concern for security.18:52
rada_I wonder if CISC over RISC is an advantage and the SMM can somehow be mitigated.18:52
zentrumSMM is you favorite backdoor ;)18:52
BitweasilCISC vs RISC is a dick waving contest from the 1980s.  It's irrelevant at this point.18:52
BitweasilModern x86 chips turn the very CISC x86 ISA into RISC u-ops internally anyway.18:52
zentrumBitweasil: i do not agree completely18:53
zentrumits still a difference having 500 Mhz on an intel edison or a GHz on a BBB18:53
rada_CISC does in hardware what RISC does in software it seems.18:53
Bitweasilzentrum, what's the actual performance difference between the two in real world applications?18:53
rada_So FPGA is the ultimate software side ..18:53
BitweasilI don't care about MHz, I care about throughput.18:54
BitweasilOr latency.  Or whatever I happen to care about at the moment.18:54
rada_I thought we care about a mix of throughput and security?18:54
zentrumBitweasil: latency is much better from my POV18:54
BitweasilDunno.  Most people care about Facebook rendering speed.18:54
rada_Because the plane being hijacked and you sitting in it is a weird feeling.18:54
BitweasilThe planes I fly have no computers. :)18:54
zentrumBitweasil: *lol* i do not even have a facebook account18:54
BitweasilWell, maybe, if it's a fancy one, a Garmin 430.18:54
zentrumBitweasil: thats my favorite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkWnHma45fk ;)18:55
BitweasilBox I'm on can't render YT.  What is it?18:56
zentrumFocke Wulf 190 rebuild a couple of years ago18:57
BitweasilNice.  Prefer the Mustang, myself.18:57
Bitweasil140 octane was quite useful during the war.18:57
BitweasilGermans: Big engines for 87 octane.  US: Smaller, lighter engines, with multi-speed blowers, on 140 octane. :)18:57
zentrumFocke Wulf had a shoot out ratio of 1:12 compared to spitfires18:58
rada_As useful as the Me262 ?18:58
BitweasilThe 262 showed up too late, and was subject to Hitler's inability to focus a new technology somewhere useful.18:58
zentrumFW-190 was amazing, BMW engine, 680 kmh top speed18:58
BitweasilThe Germans had great tech demos, and could not successfully militarize them in numbers enough to be useful.18:58
rada_or Horten H IX Nurfluegler ..18:59
BitweasilAnd they were out of good pilots late in the war when that stuff started showing up.18:59
zentrumyepp, the horten prototypes were all stolen by the US18:59
rada_Bitweasil: agree, it was a nightmare. The Americans were good advised letting this guy alive.18:59
rada_Bitweasil: because they were sitting at home suspended. lol19:00
BitweasilThe Allies stuck with a more conventional force, and were able to build and deploy in large numbers.19:00
BitweasilWell, or had been shot down.19:00
rada_This time is a  parody on the world.19:00
BitweasilThe US fighters and escorts were impressive, but weren't pushing the limits as hard.  We just built damned good piston powered airplanes around damned good engines - the P-51, the P-38, etc.19:00
rada_And this is another reason to increase security. i.e. musl and no SMM ... because Estland, Lithuania et alia are in danger.19:01
BitweasilNot that radical, just very refined.19:01
BitweasilAnd we had different airplanes for different jobs.  The P-47 was a great ground attack airplane - the P-51, less so.19:01
* Bitweasil mutters something about the F-35 being good for sucking government money.19:01
rada_And I thought your planes had no computers. ;)19:01
BitweasilStuff I fly doesn't.19:02
BitweasilI fly Cessnas, mostly.  152, 172, 182.19:02
rada_haha .. yes funny that germans were not a llowed to fly with motors. So they flew without. crazy.19:02
zentrumBitweasil: grand Caravan :)19:02
rada_oha, pay attention for your security please. The world will need your EFI works. oO19:03
zentrumBitweasil: its used here for skydiving19:03
zentrumBitweasil: pretty impressive climbing rate19:03
zentrum16(?) minutes for 4000 m19:03
BitweasilAnything with a big turbine up front will climb like that. :)19:03
BitweasilI used to fly a 152 where the field elevation was about 70% of the service ceiling...19:04
zentrumexactly, we had a LET 410 before, was a huge difference19:04
BitweasilGround lover and maybe 100m/min off the end of the runway...19:04
BitweasilAfter having used a lot of runway. :)19:04
BitweasilOf course, that a 152 is always at gross weight...19:04
rada_Can you imagine landing that beast in a field?19:05
BitweasilWhich?  A 152?  I'd rather not, but they usually do fine.19:05
zentrumhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fieseler_Fi_156 an amazing airplane too19:06
zentrumSTOV capabilities19:06
zentrumSTOL, sorry :)19:07
rada_vertical landing like vextor X-3119:07
zentrumshort take off/landing *iirc*19:08
rada_thx. I must admit though that there were a lot of fancy efforts throughout the war, both by Allied and Axis forces.19:15
rada_To be fair.19:15
rada_Because it's easy to think one's own nation is cool, it's just that the others are also cool.19:16
zentrumrada_: Internet (aka arpa) comes from the military as well19:16
rada_zentrum: oha, there we have it. like LASER tech.19:16
rada_from the czech Nikola Tesla.19:17
rada_epic man.19:17
rada_I believe that the world has to unite. And the Minnowboard being open source is a step in the right direction. As is voidlinux and musl because we must fix errors and not historically pull them with us. (like electric directed current direction conventions)19:18
rada_I'd love to test conga-PA5 ... but somehow Minnowboard still attracts me due to being a largely open design.19:19
zentrumconga is quite funny, the open design is quite fast a dream, right?19:20
zentrumi mean look at coreboot, the have to rely on binary blobs for the SMM stuff and so quite heavily...19:20
zentrumand you can do a lot of bullshit in megabytes for binary data ;)19:21
zentrumat the end, you need a FPGA ;)19:21
rada_at least the Conga PA5 does not break below 0 degrees Celsius.19:31
rada_And tell me a winter where this temperature is not reached.19:32
rada_in Middle European latitude.19:32
rada_Maybe the Minnowboard can still withstand it when considering that it heats itself.19:33
rada_So the QuadCore version should have the fan dismounted .lol19:33
rada_in winter19:33
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